This month I’m inviting 30 magical authors to share how writing a book has created transformation in their lives as part of The Magical Portal Project.
And I was delighted to have this conversation with author of Code Red, Love Your Lady Landscape and WITCH, Lisa Lister.
I ADORE Lisa’s writing and she was the first person to turn me on to the power of my cyclic nature, which is now such a big part of how we work in the Unbound Writing Mastermind.
Take a look at our conversation below and you’ll also find a full transcription of the interview if you’re a reader, rather than a watcher.
Find out more and join the free Magical Portal Project here.
Nicola: So hello and welcome to this episode of “Unbound”. I’m Nicola Humber, author of UNBOUND and founder of The Unbound Press and today I’m kind of bubbling over with excitement, because I’m joined by Lisa Lister. So welcome Lisa.
Lisa: Hi, thanks for having me.
Nicola: Oh my goodness, you’re so welcome. I can’t wait to dive into this with you, because this month, as part of the Magical Portal Project, we’re really exploring and focusing on the transformation that happens when we decide to write books, but it doesn’t often feel like a decision . I know for Lisa, you’ve spoken about how it’s like this calling that we can have, but it can end up being like this deeply transformational process and from reading, I think I’ve read all of your books, Lisa – “Code Red”, “Love your Lady Landscape”, which is not easy to say and “Witch” and I’ve loved all of them. I mean “Witch”, when I read that book, I just felt, I don’t know, it’s just such a deep sense of remembering actually. Yeah, it was incredible, but we’ll dive into all of that, anyway, this is why I wanted to get Lisa on , ’cause I just get too excited! I’ll just kind of talk and talk and I need to leave space for Lisa . So thank you for agreeing to have this conversation, which will be a conversation! So let’s dive in, Lisa, your very first book, what made you decide to write that?
Lisa: So, do you mean “Code Red” or do you mean my first, first book?
Nicola: Your first, first book.
Lisa: Okay, so my first, first book was called “Think Pink” and it was a kind of self-help book for teen girls. I was an agony aunt for Mizz Magazine at the time and it was just so clear to me that these girls weren’t loving themselves and then I was taking a look at myself as a woman, I was a young woman at the time, I was mid-20s, and I’m like, I wanna be able to help these women, I mean these young girls, sorry, to turn into women who have big, massive love for themselves because I was at mid-20s and I’m like, I’m not sure, like, it gets better at that time and of course it does and of course it did and of course it was very different and so I wanted to make sure that I could provide a way in which they felt held whilst also recognizing that writing a book for teen girls was gonna be medicine to my teen girl self and medicine for me in the process.
Nicola: Absolutely, so you recognized that actually it was going to be this personal process.
Lisa: I don’t know if I recognized it at the time, it was more like a, oh my goodness, these girls are writing in with these problems and I’m a woman and I mean, I’m a trained coach, I’m a trained person that’s here to respond to their letters and I’m also aware that me and friends, ’cause they’re mid-20s at the time, were still talking about some of those problems. We’re still experiencing some of those problems so it was like, actually, can I write something that would help heal me in the process but also help these young girls who, yeah, who were writing in every week and it was like similar, similar problems, body image, hate, a lot of hate towards their bodies and like I say, I was also recognizing that similar conversations were playing out with my friends, with my girlfriends and then I was also witnessing that while sitting in that position as somebody that was perceived as somebody who maybe has got her shit together, maybe knows what she’s doing because she’s got a qualification, so she can answer some questions, was like actually, I’m not so sure either. So yeah, there was a lot of paths to that but ultimately it was to help me, them, all of us .
Nicola: Exactly, exactly and has that been a theme, recognizing there’s a need for something to be shared but also, at the same time, knowing that it will be medicine for you as well, for where you are in your life and what’s coming up for you, has it been the same for all of your books?
Lisa: I think so. The last three have been way more selfish and have been like, I’m blessed that my work has meant that I’ve worked in magazines and so that I’ve always had a position whereby I was connected to what was up for people, so I had an awareness, there was definitely an awareness but the last three specifically, “Code Red”, for example, was really about, I couldn’t have sold that book if I tried and I did try, like I could not sell it. What, you want to talk about periods, you wanna talk about women bleeding, whoa, no, thank you, no thank you, no thank you.
Nicola: It’s amazing to think that now though, isn’t it?
Lisa: I know, it’s brilliant, in a way, to see how many books are on the market right now and how easeful it feels like for most magazines to tackle it at least once in a feature, right, which is totally unheard of and now there’s like beautiful unfoldings but when I wrote it back in 2015, “Code Red” back in 2015, that was definitely medicine for me. I wanted to write it. I knew that there was way more to our menstrual cycle. I was blessed that I got to do training with some beautiful, wise women around it and then just to recognize that there’s nothing out there, it was either like super, super goddess and spiritual stuff or there was super, super, like science-y, doctorness-y stuff but there was nothing whereby we could just look and go, oh, we’re cyclic, and actually I can feel this, my mood might be this, it might mean that I act a certain way, it might mean I feel a certain way and so I needed that medicine, first and foremost, so I created that book for me and self-published it because I tried , I tried! I had a really good relationship with publishers, I’d been an editor, I’d been, yeah, I’d worked for some of the big publishers so I thought, oh, they’re gonna get this, they’re gonna understand that there’s a need for this. Nah-uh and what’s beautiful now is that they have and that they’ve recognized and that there are lots of books for us to choose from, which I am all about, so yeah, I’m very happy about that.
Nicola: I mean, I remember, ’cause I’m on your mailing list and I remember when your work started to move in that direction before you, probably as you were writing “Code Red” and before it was released and I remember reading your emails and you talking about what was coming through in your work and the direction you wanted to move in and how that felt quite scary to actually say, actually, this is what I’m gonna be talking about now.
Lisa: I know, like you choose it! If I had my way as to what I write about, I would be sitting writing chick lit all day long, thank you. I’d be writing love stories, romance, I’d be laying on the chaise lounge, someone would be typing that shit up for me. I’d be like Barbara Cartland, eating grapes, that’s the ideal scenario, that would be it but, like you said at the beginning of this, when it’s more of a calling, when you’re being asked to show up and put some words on paper about a thing that clearly you are experienced in, so for many people you see that they’re writing from a place of expertise or they’re, I’m not claiming in any of the books that I’ve written, not from when I started “Think Pink” to now, that I’ve got anything figured out and that I’m right or that this is a method that works. I’m not selling a method, I’m not selling a thing. It’s like, literally, I’m showing up, putting some words on paper, sharing what’s moving through me, in the hope that someone will pick it up and be like, that’s moving through me too, thank fuck.
Nicola: Yeah, exactly, exactly and I think, when it comes to writing, a lot of, particularly women, will think, oh, I can’t write about this because I’m not an expert on it yet, so I need to get to this point before I can write a book about it or write anything about it. It’s like, no, this is where the juice is, when it is moving through, it’s so powerful to read that.
Lisa: And it’s brave and I’m not just saying it from my perspective but when I read somebody who is sharing from a place of, like I haven’t got it figured out but I’ve experienced this and this is my experience and this is what I’ve learned from it or even braver still, which it still gives me goosebumps to think, there are people that write it from the moment, like from right in the experience when they really haven’t got it figured out but we need more women’s voices like that. We need more women to be sharing from the dirt, from their experience or what they have experienced, like I say, sometimes retrospect is helpful, so that we give ourselves a little space. I’ve definitely shared from the dirt before and then regretted it, so I’ll be truly honest on that. giving herself some space. We need women to be sharing from our voices, deep down in our frickin’ womb space, in our guts and telling those stories. I’ve gone to publishers and they’ve told me there’s too much ‘I’ in this book and that’s because they don’t want us to have our voices and that’s why I love what you’re doing, that’s why I love when somebody chooses to self-publish because you know, it’s like, I’m gonna share my voice anyway and that’s what we need. We don’t want voices that are kind of policed or toned by an editorial. We need editors, I’m an editor, we need it, but by an editorial team who have an agenda is what I’m saying.
Nicola: Exactly and we can remove the I ourself, we can do that from moment to moment everyday, it’s like , I don’t wanna put too much of myself into this, into what I’m saying or what I’m writing ’cause what I hear a lot is women thinking, oh, maybe it’s self-indulgent to write about myself and I’m like, this is what I wanna hear though!
Lisa: As someone who coaches people to write and also as someone who has been an editor in Penguin and HarperCollins and as someone that’s published with HarperCollins, Hay House, or other people, so I’ve got like a view on all those places and just recognizing that sometimes though, the stories come in, like you say, without the ‘I’ in it because already, they’ve toned themselves and yes, there’s gonna be some publishers who still believe that they’re gatekeepers and so therefore, they can dictate what people are gonna receive, what people need. They’ve got insight teams who tell them, these are the trends, these are the things, beautiful, that’s lovely, know that that happens, know that that exists and if you are called to write for a specific publisher, some people really feel like they’re really drawn to a certain publisher and they must publish with that publisher, then there will be a series of hoops, there will be a series of agendas that you have to adhere to and then you have to deal with that practice yourself but in the unfolding of that story, you have to decide whether that works for you or not but in the truth telling, in us telling our story, that’s when the real magic happens and that end result, that book in our hand, really is a side effect, it’s almost like a really nice dessert based on the dinner, which was the process.
Nicola: I love that.
Lisa: Which is you, innit? Like, it’s you, everything you’ve experienced through the writing process, through the sharing and for including the frickin’ ‘I’s, this is my story, this is how it was for me and we need the mirrors, we don’t have enough mirrors in our society. We have a lot of people talking down to us, telling us how it should be, what we should do, how we should show and there’s no, mirrors of, yeah, this is how it was for me, it was shitty, or, this is how it was for me, it was amazing but this happened and this happened, so don’t do that ’cause when I did that, it was messy. Do it but also do it with the understanding that I did that and it was messy. Those sort of things, like that’s what we need.
Nicola: So powerful, absolutely and definitely allow yourself to have the process, even, like you said, if you’re gonna work with a certain publisher and it may get edited and the tone changed, fine but allow yourself to go there and have that experience first, I love the way you were talking about it, the book is just like the kind of dessert at the end.
Lisa: It really is. Like I know it sounds awful and it’s very easy for you and I as published authors to say that because if you haven’t published a book, sometimes it really is holding it in your hands, smelling it, I don’t wanna take that away but also, especially if you do choose to get published with a publisher, what normally happens is, your publication date won’t be for two years but your writing process, you’ll be allowed like, three to six months and so actually, that process has to be sacred, otherwise you’re not gonna receive what you need from it. I’m sharing again from my own experience, I’ve written for hire, so that means that somebody gives you an idea. It was back in the day, I’ve written a Justin Bieber Annual too, just sayin’, Lisa had to make some money.
Nicola: How transformational was that ?
Lisa: Did you know that? It was very transformational .
Nicola: We could do a whole interview just about that, Lisa.
Lisa: Justin Bieber, right. Do you know what I mean, therefore you’re given a brief, you’re told what to do, you’re told how to deliver it and so you just do the work, whereas, if this is your book, if this is a real dream to share this story, this medicine, whatever you hold true and real that you want to put on paper and put out in a book, like that process has to be a sacred one because a publisher’s not gonna hold that, if you’re gonna publish for a publisher, so I’m just assuming that’s the truth, if in that example, it means that the process isn’t gonna be quite as sacred. There’s gonna be a deadline, it’s gonna be a dut, dut, dut. So you have to hold it, you have to be the one that’s quite clear on, I need this, I need to receive as much as I need to give in the writing process, ’cause if you don’t, when the book comes out, you feel it and that’s not fun. I’ve done that too, where I’ve kind of done something, I was green, I was green as a beginning author and putting that out there and then, being like, huh, I didn’t even enjoy that, I missed it, I missed it, I missed the enjoying of it ’cause I was too busy worrying that this was gonna be right or whether this publisher would like this or whether they would like me or how would it be received, dut, dut, dut, I missed the whole process.
Nicola: Exactly, exactly, that’s so kind of helpful to hear that because I think it’s so easy just to get hung up on what people are gonna think, when you’re in the writing process and it completely gets in the way of what needs to come through. So how do you make it a sacred process for yourself, Lisa?
Lisa: Mm, yeah, I do ritualize the shit out of my writing process now, like, I really, I’m obsessed with smell, so I’ll create for that book, if I was writing my dream book right now, which would be the fiction book ’cause I’ve still got it in my head.
Nicola: Ooh.
Lisa: I still really wanna write a fiction book, if I’m planning that, for example, then it would be, like I would think of the main character and I would create a scent that was just for that character and so, I would either or there would be a smell that is associated with it, like a candle smell that I love and it would be like, right, okay, so every time I sit down to write, I would light that candle but I do that for nonfiction as well. I do the same, each book has it’s own energy, right, so I tune into the energy of the book, like “Love Your Lady Landscape” had a signature song, which was like “This Girl Is On Fire” by Alicia Keys and a signature scent and so every time I sat down to write, I’d play that song and I’d light that candle and then I’d just dive in and I’d write some words really quick, even if they were shit words, even if they were words that were nothing to do with the book, but I would just be like, look at me, I’m a writer. I’m a writer and I’m writing words because I then, it’s the trickery, you know, like writing a book. We have to trick ourselves all the time, even people that love the idea of being a writer, the actual act of writing, it’s hard. I mean, maybe you’ve met some people who are doing this, I don’t know, who are like, yes, I love it, I love it, who are writing a book, like you can love it if you’re write in a journal, people are like, oh, I’m writing in my journal. If you are writing a book, that’s when all the fear gets in, that’s when your inner critic comes up, it’s like all of this, all of the thoughts and loud and shouty in your head. So yeah, the act of it, you have to trick yourself on a daily basis to get your ass to the chair and type.
Nicola: That’s so true. I’ve used those exact words, it is like tricking yourself kinda to get into the writing and once you’re in it, it’s like, okay, I can do this.
Lisa: Exactly, exactly, which is why I always say, have a shit page where you’re like literally writing the same word over and over and over again until you say, I’m a writer, I’m a writer, I’m doing this and then something will move through but generally, yeah, I like to have a smell. Also, I do set myself and some people are weird about this but I will tell myself, you’ve only got 20 minutes, Lisa, so just get what you can down, just get what you can down. I know I’ve got longer but if I know I’ve only got 20 minutes and for some people, like mamas and people that are busy that are kind of writing around a job that they already got and stuff, maybe they’ve only got 20 minutes but telling yourself, setting yourself a little time zone, just a little bit of time, is just to go, right, I’m gonna get what I need to get out in that amount of time and then I sometimes find that I’ve kind of gone on for an hour and I’m like, ooh, go me or other times I’m like, no, that 20 minutes is plenty today, thank you.
Nicola: It’s like, is it done yet? Damn, I still got 17 minutes left .
Lisa: What, it’s only been 10 minutes, feels like 10 hours .
Nicola: Yeah, I do that also. It doesn’t even have to be for the book. I’m just gonna write some words, whatever, that’s fine but–
Lisa: That’s true too, right, it doesn’t have to be the things.
Nicola: Yeah, I’ll just write whatever wants to come through and lots of different ways. That could be a blog post, ways to trick yourself into writing a book .
Lisa: That sounds so ungrateful from people that are published and they’re like, why don’t they love writing, they’re so lucky, I know but you really do, when you’re on a deadline or when you know you’ve got to produce a thing, you get swervy with your brain, you get very swervy. You’re like, uh-huh, you find all the ways to get out of doing the thing that you love to do ’cause gods forbid, you’re actually getting to do the dream job that you always dreamed of doing.
Nicola: We’re so complex, aren’t we ?
Lisa: Aren’t we? But for women as well, I do think it’s a lot to do with the fact that we’ve been silenced and shushed and toned for so long that, given the opportunity to tell our story, whether it’s through speech or whether it’s through the written word, there is a lot of complexity to it. So, it’s not something that just comes real easy unless you’re writing a five point plan kind of book.
Nicola: Exactly, yeah.
Lisa: Which is totally cool or Justin Bieber Annual, just sayin’, no, if you’re doing any of those things, it’s a little bit easier but if in anyway you’re sharing, like medicine, if you’re sharing an experience, anything that’s really gonna be impactful or means that you have to be brave or vulnerable or courageous in order to share it, then that’s not gonna always be the easiest thing to share.
Nicola: Exactly.
Lisa: Or find a why in which to go, yeah, I’d love to share my, I’d love to pull my innards out and put it on the page and then put it out in the world, you know? That’s why we have to do the mind trickery.
Nicola: Well, as you’re speaking about that and what can come up because, as women, we have been silenced and it makes me think of, when I was reading “Witch” and I can’t remember the exact quote from it, Lisa, so you have to excuse me. ‘Cause I totally make my own words up but it’s something like, speak your truth even when your voice shakes, it was something like that and there was something about those words, it wasn’t even the words but the kind of energy in them. I just felt it in my whole body when I read them.
Lias: I think for so many of us, we don’t feel safe, right? We don’t feel safe to speak our truth, we don’t feel safe to share our story and that’s fair enough because, for most of us, as women, we’re holding the wounds of generations regarding telling our stories or being heard. So, when it comes to telling that story, I say that and I say it from a place of, this is not a comfy place, you wouldn’t imagine it by me gobbing on but it’s not a comfy place to speak out loud, it’s why I write ’cause frankly, it’s easier but that’s still misinterpreted, like writing can be misinterpreted. You could be misunderstood, you can share something and you think it’s so truthful, so real and then in a world where right now people are very easily offended and like to take offense to a lot of things then there’s a chance that you could offend someone, so then the safety element is paramount for us. We’re hypervigilant because as women, we’ve experienced this over and over and over again. We’ve shared our voice, somebody’s found it, oh, she’s too powerful, oh, she’s too much, oh, she’s too loud. We’ve shared that and then we’ve either been hung for it, we’ve been drowned for it, we’ve been burned for it, whatever, right, we carry that in our very beings, in our bodies and that’s so true for our mamas, so when we do share our story, we’re doing a lot of healing work. We’re doing it on behalf of generations but it don’t mean that it’s gonna be easy and so, we want the safe option . I want to find the safety but that’s why we have to create the safety and I say that, I do say that in the book, we have to create the safety. We have to find the way in which it’s safe for all of us to share our voice. I don’t agree with a lot of people , that’s just like a random comment. I said in the book, see, this is what I mean, this is why I shouldn’t be allowed to speak out loud. Like in the book I say, we don’t have to agree with every woman, we don’t have to be every woman’s friend but any opportunity like with your publishing imprint, any opportunity we can to support women to have a voice, to experience the process of sharing their story and to have it heard, to have it read, to have it experienced, we have to support that. You don’t have to agree with the topic, you don’t have to agree with the rhetoric or whatever it is regarding it but we do have to be like, woman is on a stage speaking out, when Hilary Clinton was going through a president, people were like ugh, Marianne Williamson’s going right now. Everyone’s calling them out, trying to find some really shady things about them, fine, you don’t have to agree with their politics but it is a woman speaking out. That’s kind of awesome, in a world where women don’t speak out a ton.
Nicola: Exactly.
Lisa: Do we want people to do better? Of course we do but can’t we just be grateful for each little step, let’s not run too fast because then we miss out on all these amazing opportunities for everyone to have a voice because if we’re vilifying that person, that one woman who’s daring to have a voice, if we vilify her, there’s like thousands of other women who are like, fuck that, I’m not doing that.
Nicola: Exactly, you know, I see it and regardless of whether I agree with what women are saying or sharing, you see the comments on social media or hear someone kinda criticising her for something, it’s like, oh god, I didn’t even think of that and it’s like oh my god, what are people thinking about me? Even though maybe consciously you can kind of put it to one side, it impacts us, doesn’t it? We carry all of that and that fear of being attacked in some way is so strong.
Lisa: Yeah and that’s why we have to, it’s not like feel the fear and do it anyway because I’m not really into that, don’t put yourself in places of danger, that’s not necessary. Don’t do things that you don’t wanna do, that’s not it but if you have a strong pull, like if it’s a stronger pull to share than it is to not, if it’s more painful not to share your story than it isn’t, you know, if it’s much more painful to sit with that story, then you have to create your safe space, which is why I ritualize everything, which is why I ask that it’s just received with the goodness that it is intended. For everything I write, please receive whatever is shared with the good and love that is intended. That’s all we can do and hope that, did I receive the medicine, yes, did I transform in the process of writing this book, absolutely, in “Code Red”, absolutely recognize that I was sharing something that I didn’t think was that taboo but turns out, it was crazy taboo at that time but blessed are we that 2019, that’s not many years, that has definitely created, there’s definitely a change. So, I’m not saying “Code Red” did that, I just mean that there’s been a wave, perhaps, in which that’s been able to happen and so that’s cool. We gotta be grateful we’re in a world where it’s moving that quick.
Nicola: Exactly but someone has to go first and like you say, you were definitely part of that, Lisa, it was the first time I’d heard anyone talking about the fact that we were cyclic beings and periods, you know, talking about it in that way. I don’t think I’d heard anyone before you, so, someone has to be part of that first part of the wave.
Lisa: And that’s cool, right, and that’s what we need is for people to feel safe enough to do that, is what I mean and that’s why I self-published it so that I knew that it wasn’t gonna have anyone else’s agenda on it. This is what I say, no one was gonna publish it, I tried . I really tried but that showed me as somebody who’d worked in an industry that I thought would be open to, was ready for this until it wasn’t and I was like, interesting and then the same with “Love Your Lady Landscape”. Yes, it was taken by a publisher. Was it the book that I would have wanted to share? 85%, but there was some compromise, including the cover, a lot of compromise and the same for “Witch”. If you’re gonna publish with a publisher, there’ll be compromise, so you have to, I think I sneaked a few more things into “Witch” then I was able to, I was like a little bit like, oh, it’s a new publisher with “Love Your Lady Landscape” but then with “Witch” I was like, I think I’ve got this figured out . The sneaky Scorpio in me was like, I think I can sneak that in but yeah, and with each book, there’s something different that moves through you and if you let it, if you let it become what you need it to be as well but I believe, first and foremost, even if you are publishing with a publisher, it has to be for you first, don’t be necessarily thinking about like, who’s my audience, who’s my ideal reader, dah, dah, dah, selfishly, this is gonna be for me. The process has been for me, the storytelling will be for me, the therapy that I get from sharing and the realizations that happen, just in writing of a shitty first draft, like about who you are as the person, about how to respond to, not only the material but like we were talking about, like how we respond to the critic or what the critic says and like, is that mine or is that societal or is that mine or is that like what my mum would have said in regards to this?
Nicola: Exactly, oh my goodness. Lisa, we were saying before we hit record, well, I’m not sure if we’ll be able to eek this out, but I could really talk with you for 24 hours about it . We’ve covered just such a small bit of what we could talk about but oh my goodness, it’s such a pleasure to speak with you and thank you so much for, not just your writing but everything you do in the world. Like I said and I can’t believe it was only four years ago that you wrote “Code Red” and that’s it, that’s the first time really I had hear someone talking about it. It’s crazy that things have moved so quickly, I think this is something, things are moving really quickly now, so we do need more women to be sharing their stories and their voices to guide us and to kind of keep us anchored in ourselves at these times, so thank you for being part of that. Such a big part of that.
Lisa: Oh, thank you for providing a space for women to have their voice. This is what’s necessary.
Nicola: Yeah. So Lisa, how can people find out more, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you do and your books?
Lisa: My website is www.thesassyshe.com. I have a love/hate relationship with social media, so Facebook is not it, Twitter is not it, so don’t be looking there but Instagram I kind of love, so that’s @sassylisalister.
Nicola: All right, we’ll put all the links below the video so people can find you easily but like I said, thank you so much, Lisa, could literally talk to you.
Lisa: Forever, we’ve got a lot to say, we’ve got a lot to say. This is what happens when you’ve silenced women for millennia.
Nicola: You can’t shut us up!. Oh, thank you, thank you and we will see you again soon for another episode of Unbound as well. Thank you, bye.
Find out more about Lisa and her work at: https://lisalister.com
