I’m all about creating wealth in a way that feels truly sustainable – a way that fits for me as a woman and isn’t all about ‘push, push, pushing’.
One of my go-to women for inspiration in this area is author and defender of female awesome-ness, Lisa Lister. I’ve been wanting to interview Lisa for ages as she has SO much wisdom to share about harnessing the super-powers of your menstrual cycle (yes, you have super-powers!) Connecting with this knowledge has literally helped me to change my life and transform my business.
So I was delighted to have the opportunity to speak with Lisa recently to find out more about her work and the launch of her new book, ‘Code Red‘.
Grab yourself a cuppa, sit back and listen to Lisa and I in conversation by clicking the play button below.
If you’d prefer to read the interview, here’s a full transcription for your delight.
Nicola: Lisa, it is such a pleasure to talk with you today!
Lisa: Thanks for having me, lovely one! I’m excited.
Nicola: Me too. Can you tell us a bit more about Code Red and specifically what inspired you to write this particular book?
Code Red is the fundamental basis of all the work that I do with women. I’ve done a lot of work with self-esteem and feeling good about yourself. I worked with the Dove Self-Esteem Project too.
What I was finding was that it was great to share practices and ways to fall in love with yourself, but what I then realised through my own menstrual journey, which has taken me on a very wild path in the last 10 years… I was misdiagnosed for a lot of years and I discovered I had endometriosis, and through the endometriosis, when I went to a doctor’s appointment, they told me I’d have to have my… They were very “white coat” about it, I guess, very “white coat” and sciency about it and were kind of like, “You’re not going to be able to have children, so the ideal situation would be to just whip ‘em out.” “Whip what out?!” “Your whole womb – we’ll whip it all out, then you won’t have any more pain.” And I was just like, “Hmm…”
And so walking out of there, I got this real fire in my belly. It wasn’t the pain and it wasn’t anything that I’d felt previously, but there was this real fire. It became like an anger in me and now I know that fire to be a reaction from SHE, which is the energy that I work with – the kind of feminine energy which resides in our womb space. So, the idea that I was going to have my womb whipped out did not sit too well with that and me. That was, I guess, my first reaction to the idea of that.
Don’t get me wrong – there was a moment when I was like, “Oh, this could be quite tempting, actually.” Anyone that knows any kind of lady part disease in their body will know that the idea of that is very, very tempting. But the actuality of it was like, “No, this is not cool, actually.” If this is the only option we’re giving women if they’re suffering this kind of pain, then there has to be other ways.
What happened was that I discovered lots of practices, lots of ways of working with my menstrual cycle – some very sciency, some super-super-hippy and spiritual, both of which I love deeply – and so Code Red is actually a culmination of all of those practices made as accessible as possible for women like me and you who are businesswomen, who have kids, who have families, who want to have great sex. I wasn’t able to have great sex because I was in pain – that is not cool!
We need to have some kind of acknowledgement of our lady parts because many of us cut ourselves off from the chest down, unless it is about sex, and we don’t pay attention to ourselves. Code Red is trying to make what I’ve learned in the last 10 years about periods, about menstruation, about lady parts in general as accessible and as fun as possible. You know, this doesn’t have to be about, “Oh, goodness, it’s doom and gloom and period pain,” and everything like that. It’s about finding your superpowers in your menstrual cycle, which we have loads. And it’s so exciting because when we know it there’s this big, massive map that goes on in our bodies every month, that if we tap into it we can create better, we can have better sex, we can have an amazing business, we can make more money. If we understand our cycle, we understand ourselves – and that, for me, is way more information than any self-care practice I’ve ever experienced before could give me.
So, yes – Code Red! That’s it, in a nutshell! I may try and get that down a bit shorter at some point! I don’t know if I could, even if I tried.
Nicola: Well, as a book you’ve made it really simple! It’s uplifting and empowering as you’re reading about the different aspects of the cycle and how to work with them to be your best and to get the best out of your life and your business.
For me personally, for the longest time I never even considered how my menstrual cycle could impact on my life and my business. I think I shared with you over email that I was on the contraceptive injection for about four years or so, so I had no cycle at all. Initially I was like, “Oh, great! It’s fantastic not to have a cycle. I can just get on and do whatever and not even think about it.” And then I started reading more of your work and some other people in this area, and that’s what inspired me to stop having the injection, which was about a year ago.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that over the past year I’ve had the best year ever in my business. I’ve moved in a different direction, I’ve just felt so inspired. It’s had such a huge impact on me. I just wonder how this knowledge and this wisdom that you acquired and started to tap into has specifically helped you in your life and your business?
Lisa: It’s changed so massively. I think, hearing what you said, it was exactly that, because any kind of synthetic hormonal induced set-up in your body is going to be numbing our menstrual cycle, our cyclic nature as women – and we are cyclic. We’re trying to function in this masculine construct, which is no bad thing at all, but if we know that we can manage it better.
I think that, for me, was a really big switch. It was like, okay, so the world is very linear and the fact that every month, come my premenstrual and menstruation time, I’m experiencing crazy mood swings, all of the stereotypical stuff that comes with that time that we’re told to put up with, that we’re told is just part of being a woman. It’s not, actually. What it is is us going against our cyclic nature, our true essence of being a woman.
So, when I realised that, you can then start utilising the time a little bit more effectively. You can start seeing that, actually, those first two sections of our cycle – the pre-ovulation and the ovulation – are times when we can be linear because that energy in our body is masculine. We can get stuff done – we can get a whole ton of stuff done, actually – and we can manifest; we can bring things into fruition really easily when we realise that it’s a superpower.
So, then, when we tip past that ovulation phase and go into pre-menstruation and menstruation, this is our feminine area and this is where the feminine energy comes into its own. If we don’t know how to use it – which so very few of us have been taught or trained or has been shared with us because nobody knew any better because we have been functioning in this masculine society – then of course we’re going to come up against friction. We’re going to feel rage because we don’t understand what’s going on for us; then we take that out on the people in our families and we expect them to understand. Especially we you live with dudes of any kind, we expect them to understand. How can we expect them to understand what’s going on if we don’t understand ourselves?
I think my own personal learning has been knowing myself through my menstrual cycle and knowing what I’m able to create, when I’m able to create, and then when I need to come inwards and not be so social and not be so out there in the world. I’ve actually now been able to create a really amazing life. And as you said, it’s no coincidence. It really isn’t, because you realise that you’re not consistent and, guess what? That’s okay. You’re able to access SHE powers in each of the phases.
There are powers in all of them, even the premenstrual and menstruation, and for me they’ve become way more powerful than the previous two now – although that’s taken a bit of work, so I’m not asking everyone to fall in love with PMS. But seeing PMS as an indicator that something is wrong, seeing PMS as an indicator that you’re not getting what you need in life, yes – that’s where PMS is really good.
So, yes, my life really was… 10 years ago, as I kind of discovered this work through having endometriosis, which… You know, they say your womb is where the light comes in – it definitely was for me. It’s now meant that I’m able to live a life that’s totally in synch with me. I’m not trying to be in synch with the world, so I’m not going against my own cyclic nature anymore. When I don’t do that, it’s so much easier to create books – my whole book was done in synch with my cycle. I know my work is about this, so I’m very blessed in that respect, but I won’t take clients when I’m bleeding because that’s my time; that’s my time to really connect with myself and download what needs to be downloaded and to fill up my well so that I’m ready then to work through the next cycle to create and to be and to do what needs to happen in that cycle. So, yes, I guess I work much more cyclically; my abundance levels are high.
And I have an amazing relationship with my husband because I know me; I’m able to share with him. He’s written a section in the book so that women can leave it open for any boy-kinds that are in their lives – it doesn’t necessarily have to be husbands; it can be any kind of dude in your life – to understand what is going on for women each month. He said it was a revelation for him. Knowing that this is happening in a woman’s life every month means that he’s been able… He knows now that there are going to be days when he just needs to chuck chocolate at me from a distance and it’s not his fault and that’s okay. We have so very few arguments now because of that and it feels good. It feels juicy to live this way.
Nicola: Absolutely! I’m really interested in what you said there about this idea that we should be consistent and we should consistently be able to be taking action and be out there, and if we’re not doing that there’s the idea that there’s something wrong with us.
I know I’ve certainly, in the past, felt like I was doing fine and felt I was really on it, and then all of a sudden I’m not feeling right and something’s gone wrong. And to use PMS as a sign, like you say, that actually you’re not getting what you need, you’re not doing what you need to do is really empowering, isn’t it.
Lisa: I think so. And also, at that time, our premenstrual time is a time when we can really feel that “not good enough” voice come up really loud in us as well. That’s because we’re trying to exist in a linear kind of construct, in this linear world of goal orientation.
For dudes that’s great; that’s how they get stuff done. And for lots of women, you’re able to do it to a certain extent but you will burn out if you do because you’re not getting what you need in that. So, it’s all very good to do that, and I know it would be very controversial to women that are very goal-orientated, that can get shit done, that can make it happen; but they will suffer for that.
That’s not me being a bringer of doom and it doesn’t necessarily mean that will be now. It could be when you reach menopause because you completely avoided the subject of being a woman because you’ve been working in a very masculine way.
Women who are successful in business and doing it in a very masculine way are not honouring themselves in that process too. What is exciting now is that I can see women taking on this feminine model and realising that there has to be a balance; that we can use the masculine energy in the first part of our cycle, but we have to acknowledge and then use the feminine energy in the second half of the cycle so that we understand that we are good enough. When we get to that point in ovulation, you feel like you’re superwoman; you feel like you could do anything, be anyone, you can get goals done.
Then what happens is we slide into pre-menstruation and that’s not the case anymore because, actually, you’re being called into yourself; you’re being called home. But if you don’t know that, that kind of energy dip – which is hormonal and is happening because you need to slow down in order to fill up – if you don’t know that’s what’s happening, it becomes another really fricking big stick to beat yourself up with for not being good enough and not being able to deliver on time.
Today I’m day 23 in my cycle, so I’m in pre-menstruation time now. I’m not as articulate as I need to be to be doing a phone call with you right now! So, I know that about myself, but I’m like, “You know what? Show up anyway.” And that’s all you can do, is show up as you are and do what needs to be done in a way that feels good.
I know that I can talk to you – that’s all good – but I know that if we’d spoken two weeks ago you would have got a way more snappy, articulate version of me. Today you’re getting this version of me, which is a truthful one and which is a chatty one, but not necessarily an articulate one!
Nicola: You sound pretty articulate to me! And actually it’s interesting, isn’t it, because we’d planned to do this interview last week at a different point in your cycle. So, I think it’s really interesting that we weren’t able to do it then and it’s ended up being now.
Lisa: Absolutely! And we can’t beat ourselves up about any of this stuff, but women, we do. I don’t want women to read the book and go, “Oh no! I can only do phone interviews in the first half of my cycle!” You know what? That’s a superpower – you can use it. That’s all I’m sharing, is that there’s a superpower in the first part of your cycle. Your hormone levels mean that you can speak way more articulately, be way more to the point. But actually, in this half of the cycle you’ll speak a deeper truth – so, there’s more chance that I might be a little bit more woo-woo than maybe I would have been in that part of the cycle.
If you did an interview with me every week for the next four weeks, you’d get a different version of this interview. I think that’s the authenticness that women need to be bringing to their business in how we work. It’s that because we show up differently each week; we’re a different woman each week.
When people accuse womankind, “I don’t know which one you are,” it’s like, yes, that’s pretty much the case. We need to learn to embrace that and realise that we view the world through different eyes in each phase of our cycle and that’s totally okay.
Nicola: Yes. And actually, just knowing that enables me to breathe a huge sigh of relief. It’s okay!
You mentioned that the first half of the cycle is more masculine energy. In the second half of the cycle, are there any specific ways that you could give us to use that more feminine energy? It’s not something that we’re really encouraged to do, generally, or told about. Are there any specific things that we can do in that second part of the cycle to help us?
Lisa: What will happen hormonally is that everything starts to dip; your energy levels get lower and that’s why we suffer from the pain that we do generally, because we’re still trying to truck on through and really still create the same levels that we were at during the last two weeks. That’s just not physically possible and that’s when the pain occurs. So, it is a case of slowing down.
For example, today, I run a business, you run a business, so I can’t say to you, “No, I only do phone calls in the first part of the cycle. I only speak in the first part of the cycle.” But what you can do is start to minimise your workload. So, I make sure all of my calls are booked in for those first two weeks – if it doesn’t happen that’s totally okay, but it just means that as I’m slowing down I’ve got less to do.
I know there will be some resistance to the idea at first, but I promise that if you work with the phases of your cycle you’ll realise you get more done when you’re doing less. I’ve got a book coming out next week, so the book is launching during a time that I will be bleeding – that’s not ideal, but that’s just how it’s happened. It was meant to be out previously and it hasn’t been. All of these things, you have to trust there’s a reason for it and you then have to find support mechanisms for it.
So, for me, I need to be slowing down so I just need to take each thing slower. If you’re used to going fast, the idea of slowing down is hard, and this phase especially will bring out the critic in you: “Who do you think you are? You can’t take time out! You’ve got too much to do! You’ve got this, you’ve got that!” Slow down. Do yoga, take deep breaths. I don’t care if it all sounds clichéd – clichés are clichés for a reason.
This is the time in your cycle that you’re being asked to listen to your inner wisdom. This is when our intuition is at its strongest if we allow ourselves to listen in, if we allow ourselves to be still long enough to hear what’s being said.
I think that’s a big thing for women. We should all be doing business from a place of intuition because we are wise and we are wild as well. This is a time where the untamedness of us, our truth, can really come through if we allow it to. And so it is a case of allowing. We all need a permission slip and Code Red is the permission slip to actually be living life in that way – but you really have to trust. You have to trust that this isn’t some other kind of self-help concept; this is happening in your body right now. If you’re in your bleeding years, this is happening in your body right now; if you’re not in your bleeding years and you’ve either had a brought-on menopause or a natural menopause, you will see that also through the cycle of the moon, which is also roughly 28 to 29 days. It’s possible for us all to follow that. You can see that as the moon wanes – which is the same period of our premenstrual and our menstrual phase in our bodies – that we are being called to slow down. In the olden days, it was a time that was revered in women; this was a really powerful time. Men would come to worship these women because they knew that these women were smart: “Give me the answers to this.” They were oracles. Your womb is your oracle; if you let it become that it can be – it can give you the answers that you need.
It’s just slowing down, quietening down, especially if you’re in a quite high-powered, stressy, job, to give yourself even 10 minutes a day as you’re going into that premenstrual phase. And like I say, I don’t want people to change it overnight, but I’d love people just to experience in that phase of the cycle what slowing down for 10 minutes and bringing your awareness to that area – to your womb, to your ovaries, maybe just placing your hand on that space – and really just feeding into what that means, what that area is trying to tell you.
But even putting your hand on your belly actually is like, “What?!” for some women I’ve worked with – they find even that a difficulty because we don’t bring our attention to that space. So, just bringing our attention to that space, slowing down and getting quiet would be my advice.
Nicola: Absolutely. As you were speaking about that, I was just remembering that as I was reading Code Red, one of the big light bulb moments for me was the idea that actually, when I’m in the first half of my cycle and that more masculine energy, just noticing that I find it hard to slow down and tune into my intuition.
It can be another pressure that we put on ourselves: “Oh, I’ve got to have my meditation practice and I’ve got to sit.” And actually, it’s really hard to do that in the first half of the cycle. I’d never thought about it like that before. I just thought, “Oh, I’m rubbish at meditation,” because I felt I was getting into my practice and then I just can’t sit still, I can’t tune in. But it’s okay in the first couple of weeks of the cycle just to be really in the action and the second half is more about being and tuning in.
Lisa: Absolutely, and you’re right. In the book I outline in each phase different things that you can do to connect because your energy levels will be so different in each phase. So many people beat themselves up when they start a running regime, for example. One week you are going to love to run, especially if that’s what gets your juices going, and if you’ve started to do that practice in your pre-ovulation phase for two weeks you’re going to be the running queen. But come that third week, when we come into that premenstrual phase and running doesn’t seem at all appealing, that’s when, as women, we beat ourselves up: “Oh, I don’t want to run anymore. Clearly, I’m rubbish. Clearly, I’m a failure. I can’t do this.” And it’s not that at all. It’s actually just that your energy levels are calling for you to do something else.
If we were to listen to what our body wanted, it will tell us. Mine knows that it loves to go to the gym in the first week or two of my cycle, and in the second week or two that’s all home practice – I do yoga and do lots of sacred movement and dance and just things that are nourishing for me because we need a lot of nourishment in that second half of the cycle. As women, we are rubbish at nourishing ourselves, which is why the second half of the cycle is so interesting for me. We can really work the first half as women; we’ve got it because that’s what we’re doing in the world out there all the time. But the second half is new territory to us and we’re struggling in that space when actually we should be using it to thrive, because it is our place of intuition, it is our place of knowledge and power if we let it be.
Nicola: How has your business evolved since you’ve been doing this work and really working in alignment with your cycle?
Lisa: I thought it would be hard because, obviously, it is a very niche subject. People do not like you talking about blood and guts, really, which is kind of what I talk about. I talk a lot about blood, I talk a lot about bellies and intuition and all of those things – which, for me, are the blood and guts of being a woman. And yet that’s not socially acceptable yet; it’s still very much a taboo to talk about our periods in public, even. It’s still a whispered thing and we’ve got a very mixed up, crazy language for periods, let alone our lady bits. So, to then make this my business was like, “Oh, okay.” But it happened.
I put it into practice first. I run a very SHE-led business; I’m a very feminine-led business. Saying that, I don’t mean it’s all about the feminine; it’s just that in your cycle you’re able to see, experience and feel the balance and what it feels like to be truly in balance with the masculine and the feminine. For me, that means that I’m SHE-led because I’m listening, because I’m intuitively working with what is going on in my body, and so that’s how I run my business now. I was worried that I wouldn’t attract the right clients when actually, when I became the teacher I needed to be… I listened to a podcast the other day and they mentioned this. It’s usually the other way round, that when you’re ready the teacher will appear, but actually it feels like I’ve become the teacher and the clients have appeared because this is necessary – this is actually a really powerful way for us, as women, to create business. I’ve doubled my income by working this way, which is important and isn’t important in equal measures. It’s nice to have good money and it’s nice to be paid to do something I love and that I’m passionate about, and also proof that it’s necessary.
I was told, “I can’t believe you’re choosing this as a business.” I was a writing coach and still am, but now I use the cyclic nature of us as women to help women find a way to write, because I wrote my last book in this cyclic energy and it was like, “Oh my goodness! Why wasn’t I told this when I started writing books?” So now, actually everything I do is in tune with the cycle and everything I share is cyclic too. So, yes, it’s become amazing. I’ve got no other words for it, really. It’s like I said to you previously, it’s almost like a life upgrade by understanding myself better. That’s what I feel I’ve been gifted through having endometriosis, which is ridiculous. The pain and discomfort that came with that has led me to now have a completely upgraded life, thanks to my womb!
Nicola: I love that – a life upgrade! Just imagine what would have happened if you’d gone along with what the doctors had said to you and just had it all whipped out, how your life could be different. It doesn’t bear thinking about, does it?
Lisa: No. And just having trusted myself in that moment… I was about 27, I guess. Actually, I don’t want to be aging myself unnecessarily! I was in my twenties, I remember, and to realise that there was a moment that I did trust my intuition and that was to say, “Absolutely not – that is not what is happening. I’m going to find another way.” And so I found that other way, and that other way has led me to this and now I’m able to share that with women – depending on which day of my cycle as to how articulately I share that! Which is why I’ve written a book, because I can write words – that I know. But it’s incredibly powerful to listen to our inner voices and our wisdom that we have in abundance if we just allow it to come through.
Nicola: Absolutely. Lisa, I could literally talk to you all day.
Lisa: Bless your heart! Probably not to day though – geez, Louise!
Nicola:For women who are listening today and maybe women who haven’t even thought about this before and haven’t thought about their cycles and how it has an impact on their lives in general, how can they get started with this work? Obviously they can get hold of their copy of Code Red – we’ll put the link to be able to buy that following this recording. But how can they connect with you further? What’s the best way to do that?
I have a website, which is thesassyshe.com. I run programmes, workshops, online programmes for those of you who aren’t able to get to in-person stuff. But even if you just buy the book, the book has a downloadable cycle repair kit that comes free with the book, and all I want for women is for them to know their flow. If we know what our menstrual cycle is doing… If you don’t start in that point, we can’t do the rest of the work. You just need to know your flow, and if it’s really irregular or any of that stuff you’re then able to start pinpointing some of the areas where you can say, “Oh, do you know what? I’m not good on that day. On this day I’m flying! I got so much done.” So, that’s all I ask of women, really. I’d love for you to work with me, but ideally I would just want you to know your flow because if you know how your menstrual works you can then work with it to create a really amazing life.
Did you mean in terms of connecting with me? Did I just go off on one?
Nicola: No, you didn’t!
Lisa: Website, Instagram, Facebook: they’re where I hang out. I like Instagram a lot, so come and see me there. That’s my favourite.
Nicola: That’s fantastic. Thank you so much, Lisa. It’s such a joy to speak with you and this work is just fascinating. It’s created such an impact in my life and my business, and that’s why I really wanted to speak to you so I’m delighted to be able to. Thank you.
Lisa: Amazing. Thank you for having me. You’re a superstar.
Click here to order your copy of Lisa’s new book, ‘Code Red’.
